Land Rover PROTECTION For Sale

HTTP/1.1 406 No acceptable objects were found || Land Rover UK Forums > Vehicle Sections > Land Rover Main Forum Sections > Land Rover Defender > landrover 90 security PDA View Full Version : landrover 90 security dunc220 11th Jan 2009, 06:00 im am so anoyed, some sucm tried nicking my 90td, if id of caught em they would be missing fingers!!! anyway does anyone know whats the best way to secure a 90? i was looking down the route of insurance cat2 immobliser?? and maybe tracker. does anyone have any ideas? yostumpy 11th Jan 2009, 09:14 disclok on the steering wheel, big, highly visible,ALMOST theif proof. Not heard of any one having lost one, with one of these fitted, unless they used a crane! paul123 11th Jan 2009, 09:24 shotguns are very good but on the range rover i have a bar that goes thro the brake and clutch pedal with a chain round the steering wheel padlocked together:bigun2: mick stobbs 11th Jan 2009, 10:04 Depending where i leave the old TD and for how long,i sometimes take the steering wheel off..... Not good if you need to do it every time you park it up though. Mick. Neil Chater 11th Jan 2009, 10:58 Cat II immobiliser and Disklok on mine, it's also usually garaged at the moment! Hopefully this will slow down / put off most, but if they really want it they will still take it. Mutleysnuts 11th Jan 2009, 14:40 Imoboliser and Disklock here too i think the value of something visible is a very good idea :) Steve Wag 11th Jan 2009, 19:44 I have a immo/alarm cat 2 and steering lock. I was thinking about fitting one of those steering wheels that you can disconect, but how many times can you put them on and take them off? the last thing you want is it coming loose while out and about. Anyone had one? Also I always leave the diff lock in neutral if its a numpty that is trying to take it then it'll just rev the b******s off it and wake me. dunc220 11th Jan 2009, 19:50 cheers guys, i have brought a steering whell lock now, gonna have a cat II immobilser on too. sgl322 11th Jan 2009, 19:55 what is your 90? If it's a TD5 it has an alarm and immobiliser fitted already. Just needs to be activated and fobs bought and synced. Just thought i'd mention in case it's a TD5. dunc220 11th Jan 2009, 20:10 no nothing that special, its a 20 year old 90 dt sw, i was suprised someone tried to nick it as it looks its age, and on the night in question it was -9 and would of taken some starting, but they couldnt get past the steering lock, im gonna get a cat II immob fitted now. Yorkshire90 12th Jan 2009, 11:06 I bought a Full metal jacket pedal lock pedal lock box. Totally encases the pedals. There are ways around all security devices, however this one would need them to arrive very equipped to be able to drive away after removal. £130. Was in lro either this month or last. If I park up in a serious bum town, I pop the lock box on, steering lock and pop the 90 into neutral on the gearing selector. I'd imagine if they were in a hurry, a rookie car theif wouldnt know how to get the 90 into H ....as I have trouble getting it in myself! :D Bloody Landys :cool: Satancom 12th Jan 2009, 11:18 I use a couple of methods on mine.. Steering lock for visual deterent and then a battery kill switch and fuel cut off.. And If leaving for a while I tend to take the rotor arm out. No single thing is going to stop someone nicking it but its going to give them a hard time. Nothing is where it should be on my truck so It will confuse thieves as they would have to hunt for everything.. including the battery! yostumpy 13th Jan 2009, 14:58 A good tip! When you park up, park nose in, close to a nearside wall if poss, then just before you turn off, spin the steering wheel right hand down, full lock, then put on the disclok, so that if they think,'we'll leave the disclok on and tow it out' the nearside front then rolls into the wall and it aint goin' nowhere!:p SimonHobson 13th Jan 2009, 21:20 I was thinking about fitting one of those steering wheels that you can disconect, but how many times can you put them on and take them off? The quick detach ones are designed to be removed regularly. But, think about the practicality - would you really walk around town, go in the pub/restaurant/theatre/whatever carrying a steering wheel :rolleyes: If you don't take it with you, then it's no protection. Secret switches are OK if you remember to switch them off. I used to have a three way switch (unmarked, and inconspicuous amongst other switches) as part of the gas conversion - gas-off-petrol. Good protection from someone starting it and driving off if there's no fuel, but to be honest, I regularly forgot to turn it off. Some years ago, I recall a project in an electronics magazine for a box that would allow you to start the engine, but after a short delay would make it stutter and misfire, and eventually stop. The idea was that a would be thief would assume that it was just running badly and give up. And supposedly, valves that lock the brakes on are illegal. I always thought the best protection was a hungry Rottweiller :eek: Hot Rod 14th Jan 2009, 18:17 disclok on the steering wheel, big, highly visible,ALMOST theif proof. Not heard of any one having lost one, with one of these fitted, unless they used a crane! :confused: Yeah thats good. What is the cheapest price anyone has found for a Disclok??? Another solution is to run an chain round the back axle and bolt it to your teenage son's leg - nobody is going to want to nick one of them! Satancom 14th Jan 2009, 18:22 And supposedly, valves that lock the brakes on are illegal. Yup but you can use it to lock the clutch on :) DLS Bute 14th Jan 2009, 20:01 I've got a handbrake lock on mine called a Jet Lock Do'nt know where you get them but was designed for Defenders. Madcowz 15th Jan 2009, 19:06 I've got a handbrake lock on mine called a Jet Lock Do'nt know where you get them but was designed for Defenders. I have one of these as well. Nice bit of kit, but I don't know if you can still buy them. Not a great picture though: http://i44.tinypic.com/wrzvr8.jpg POAH 15th Jan 2009, 19:53 :confused: Yeah thats good. What is the cheapest price anyone has found for a Disclok??? Another solution is to run an chain round the back axle and bolt it to your teenage son's leg - nobody is going to want to nick one of them! ordered a large one off ebay for £80 posted http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=180304500471&Category=121979 getting a CAT2 immob and an alarm fitted once I get her Richie_asg1 15th Jan 2009, 20:22 I would find one of those kits to etch your VIN onto the windows. It's fairly easy to do, and some get stolen with false plates on, then stripped. You may have a better chance of finding it if taken. I had success with a 1.6I fiesta that I fitted a keypad immobiliser to. I suppose I was a bit before my time - as it was about 10 years ago. It was a simple 12v kit that actuated a relay to break 2 circuits. It only operated for 2 seconds - but the relay latched when it had a switched live from the ignition. It cut the power to the starter relay - and more inportantly the signal from the crank sensor. I was woken one morning by a policemans knock - saying my car was down the road after 6 people were seen pushing it trying to start it! The police would have brought it back - but they couldn't start it either! I got in - typed in 4 keys - and it started on the key. Still had to go into the garage as they wrecked the door. If you own a petrol, I would go for something similar, or for a diesel - you really need one with an ECU to mess up. Older diesels are too easy to towstart. educationalist 15th Jan 2009, 20:41 I have found the clutch Claw to be a good deterent easy to take on and off as well Locks in seconds Impossible to attack whilst sitting in vehicle Fits virtually all vehicles Can be re-set for change of owners vehicle (life long security!) http://www.centinel.org.uk/clutch_claw.php (http://www.centinel.org.uk/clutch_claw.php) Screw fix sells these as well on special offer at the moment http://www.screwfix.com/search.do;jsessionid=0B0AOKHFJC352CSTHZOSFFA?_dync harset=UTF-8&fh_search=clutch+claw&searchbutton.x=43&searchbutton.y=15 (http://www.screwfix.com/search.do;jsessionid=0B0AOKHFJC352CSTHZOSFFA?_dync harset=UTF-8&fh_search=clutch+claw&searchbutton.x=43&searchbutton.y=15) neallin 15th Jan 2009, 20:54 found this one evening when doing a bit of research on the full metal jacket that was featured in LRO http://www.rs-laser-cutting.co.uk/fullmetaljacket.htm its 30 quid cheaper than the one featured in LRO but i assume it does the same job. jtpalmer 15th Jan 2009, 20:58 I have found the clutch Claw to be a good deterent easy to take on and off as well Locks in seconds Impossible to attack whilst sitting in vehicle Fits virtually all vehicles Can be re-set for change of owners vehicle (life long security!) http://www.centinel.org.uk/clutch_claw.php (http://www.centinel.org.uk/clutch_claw.php) Screw fix sells these as well on special offer at the moment http://www.screwfix.com/search.do;jsessionid=0B0AOKHFJC352CSTHZOSFFA?_dync harset=UTF-8&fh_search=clutch+claw&searchbutton.x=43&searchbutton.y=15 (http://www.screwfix.com/search.do;jsessionid=0B0AOKHFJC352CSTHZOSFFA?_dync harset=UTF-8&fh_search=clutch+claw&searchbutton.x=43&searchbutton.y=15) that looks like a serious piece of kit ive just looked at the site whats the rods like to alter , the ones that go inbetween the pedals ??? educationalist 15th Jan 2009, 22:05 that looks like a serious piece of kit ive just looked at the site whats the rods like to alter , the ones that go inbetween the pedals ??? Could not be easier. I use one on the Land Rover and on the wifes BMW Mini, I have also recently used it on a Range Rover sport that I had the use of. All you do it arrange spacers on the shafts it takes about a minute to taylor fit to any Pedal, then you just place the unit over the pedal and slide the lock section into place, takes abvout 15 seconds on the Land Rover and because of the hight you do not even have to bend your back. I once spoke to the owner of these units at a recent show and he told me that he was thinking of putting in for Secure Sold status. jtpalmer 15th Jan 2009, 22:11 Could not be easier. I use one on the Land Rover and on the wifes BMW Mini, I have also recently used it on a Range Rover sport that I had the use of. All you do it arrange spacers on the shafts it takes about a minute to taylor fit to any Pedal, then you just place the unit over the pedal and slide the lock section into place, takes abvout 15 seconds on the Land Rover and because of the hight you do not even have to bend your back. I once spoke to the owner of these units at a recent show and he told me that he was thinking of putting in for Secure Sold status. how much did you pay for it ??? so its really easy then and it wont move from side to side ?? educationalist 15th Jan 2009, 22:26 how much did you pay for it ??? so its really easy then and it wont move from side to side ?? I bought two at a show about two years ago and paid £70.00 each. I have fitted it to both my land Rovers a 1984 defender that has series three pedals fitted as many of the very early Defenders had and to my 2006 Defender, Both these models have no noticeable movement of the unit on the pedals which would also take some getting off owing to the position. The beauty of this security device and particularly on a Land Rover is that it is very quick to fit and is a heavy well engineered piece of kit. At the moment it is being sold by Screw Fix at a very special price a bargain if ever I saw one jtpalmer 15th Jan 2009, 22:33 I bought two at a show about two years ago and paid £70.00 each. I have fitted it to both my land Rovers a 1984 defender that has series three pedals fitted as many of the very early Defenders had and to my 2006 Defender, Both these models have no noticeable movement of the unit on the pedals which would also take some getting off owing to the position. The beauty of this security device and particularly on a Land Rover is that it is very quick to fit and is a heavy well engineered piece of kit. At the moment it is being sold by Screw Fix at a very special price a bargain if ever I saw one i will have a look on screwfix !! sounds good have you seen that on full metal jacket on http://www.rs-laser-cutting.co.uk/fullmetaljacket.htm this looks good aswell !! jtpalmer 15th Jan 2009, 22:39 http://www.screwfix.com/search.do;jsessionid=SRZAFGHKOE2IECSTHZOCFFY?_dync harset=UTF-8&fh_search=clutch+claw thats the link to screwfix they are cheaper than that full metal jacket on and look easier to put on too !! lozzd 16th Jan 2009, 00:12 I had success with a 1.6I fiesta that I fitted a keypad immobiliser to. I suppose I was a bit before my time - as it was about 10 years ago. I was woken one morning by a policemans knock - saying my car was down the road after 6 people were seen pushing it trying to start it! The police would have brought it back - but they couldn't start it either! I got in - typed in 4 keys - and it started on the key. That's a great story :biggrin: the keypad thing reminds me of the BMW out of The Transporter! Love that film.. jtpalmer 16th Jan 2009, 00:33 That's a great story :biggrin: the keypad thing reminds me of the BMW out of The Transporter! Love that film.. yeah!!! SO CORNY THAT FILM !!! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::p:p:biggrin:: biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: RyderUK 7th Sep 2009, 23:02 I have always thought that a decent remote control system activated from a mobile phone, coupled to a 12 inch spike beneath the driving seat would do the trick nicely ;) Demonimages 5th Oct 2009, 13:03 And supposedly, valves that lock the brakes on are illegal. Is this right? I was thinking of fitting a mechanical line lock for winching but one hidden out of the way or made tamper proof would be very effective with an electronic immobiliser on a mechanically pumped diesel engine,added with steel plate over the back of your fuel solenoid fixed with security type nuts. Try taking that quickly without a hiab or spec lift. mamonem 5th Oct 2009, 17:31 What about fitting a Battery Isolation switch ? Does two things, add's security (as they can't start it) and prevents drain on your battery when left for long periods (if its not your main vehicle). If you fit it yourself, I reckon about £20 should do it! educationalist 5th Oct 2009, 18:31 I've got a handbrake lock on mine called a Jet Lock Do'nt know where you get them but was designed for Defenders. I have one of these as well. Nice bit of kit, but I don't know if you can still buy them. Not a great picture though: http://i44.tinypic.com/wrzvr8.jpg Simonites used to market these, but apparently the guy who made then went bankrupt or something, Simonites did say though that if they got enough enquires he might try and find another manufacture to make them and start selling them again Matt_300tdi90 5th Oct 2009, 18:36 I've got a big-un ;):D http://www.albert-jagger.co.uk/Portals/0/bigun.pdf SimonHobson 5th Oct 2009, 19:36 And supposedly, valves that lock the brakes on are illegal. Is this right? From Mud Stuff's website (http://www.mudstuff.co.uk/Meck_Lock.shtml) : Can I fit the Meck Lock System® to the brakes? NO… & YES! EU law states that: "Devices to prevent unauthorised use preventing release of the brakes of the vehicles shall not be permitted." We are therefore unable to advertise or supply the Meck Lock System® for use as a brake immobiliser. In Italy, fitting the Meck Lock System® to the brakes is commonplace. The Italians get around the EU ruling by claiming the system does not interfere with the braking system when in normal driving conditions. Only when the system is activated by the owner and the vehicle is at a standstill does it prevent the release of the brakes and these are not 'normal driving conditions.' ... So I had a quick search for those words and came up with this (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31995L0056:en:NOT) : 3.13. Devices to prevent unauthorized use preventing release of the brakes of the vehicle shall not be permitted. Now that on it's own isn't enough. Earlier on in the document, it says : 3. With effect from 1 October 1998, the Member States: ... - may refuse the sale and entry into service of new immobilizers or new alarm systems, on grounds relating to devices to prevent unauthorized use, if the requirements of Directive 74/61/EEC, as amended by this Directive, are not fulfilled. So that means each country may refuse to give approval, or may prohibit sale/fitting of non-compliant devices. So where does that leave us ? Well drivers of older vehicles (possibly those of use with the least to worry about) probably have no problem - we don't have a European type approval to invalidate. If you have a newer vehicle (anyone know when the cutoff date is for land Rover products ?) then it's different - you have a vehicle built to European type approval and not to UK standards. For these the jist of the law is that it is illegal to alter it, or to fit any non-approved accessory or part - doing so invalidates the type approval and it is no longer road legal anywhere in Europe. So there we have it, unless someone knows differently. Anyone interested enough to read the above linked document will notice that three methods are allowed : immobilising the engine in combination with locking the steering, locking the gearchange, or locking the gearbox (ie lock it as in preventing rotation). Given all the rules about preventing accidental operation of protection, I fail to see any safety or operational difference between locking the brakes on and locking the gearbox or steering. In effect, locking the gearbox will have exactly the same effect on mobility as locking the brakes on - if the Police or other authorities want it moved* then they can have it moved and neither will stop them. * At work we had someone drive into the building. The Police arranged for the car to be removed, and I noticed the recovery guy didn't bother with handbrake etc - he just put a strap through the back wheels and dragged it up the tilt-bed. Hydraulic winch 1, bent Picasso nil :D What about fitting a Battery Isolation switch ? Does two things, add's security (as they can't start it) and prevents drain on your battery when left for long periods (if its not your main vehicle). And doesn't stop anyone just towing it away. landy-lovin-Fin 5th Oct 2009, 19:47 This is realy simple but may catch someone out. Just put the transfer box into neutral. If there in a rush, and dont know there 4x4's, they wont be going anywhere fast. I did this as a joke to one of my work colleagues landys, useing the 'one key fits all principle', i put it into neutral. He thought the gearbox had broken. Very funny, wouldnt suggest doing it to a stranger. Oh yeah, if your door lock barrels are worn, (and if its done 100,000 odd miles, they will be, anyone with door key can get in, so change them. dunc220 8th Oct 2009, 16:04 ive changed all my locks now, have a clutch claw a steering wheel lock and im just about to put the battery switch in, hopefully that will stop it going anywhere! educationalist 8th Oct 2009, 16:59 ive changed all my locks now, have a clutch claw a steering wheel lock and im just about to put the battery switch in, hopefully that will stop it going anywhere! Trouble is the thieving basta*ds just winch it on to a low loader so you now need to put a heavy chain around the chassis and firmly anchor it to something like a tree or lamp post with a big strong padlock to complete the job ;) dunc220 8th Oct 2009, 17:48 yeah thats a thought! well hopefully they wont get it, where it gets parked theres 3 other cars around it so wouldnt be easy to get out! but i know what you mean! Konrad96 9th Oct 2009, 11:30 On military landies a good idea is to put a fog light switch on the steering column where the normal light switch would go (military landies having the six position rotary switch on teh dash). You then wire the ignition through this. I have it on my new landy and when its switched off, nothing works, but it just looks like a light switch. Even if they pull the wires from the ignitiion barrel this should still fox them. Foxed me for two days when I first got the landy... dunc220 9th Oct 2009, 15:47 that is a good idea, do you know where you get them from? RyderUK 9th Oct 2009, 22:42 From Mud Stuff's website (http://www.mudstuff.co.uk/Meck_Lock.shtml) : So I had a quick search for those words and came up with this (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31995L0056:en:NOT) : Now that on it's own isn't enough. Earlier on in the document, it says : So that means each country may refuse to give approval, or may prohibit sale/fitting of non-compliant devices. So where does that leave us ? Well drivers of older vehicles (possibly those of use with the least to worry about) probably have no problem - we don't have a European type approval to invalidate. If you have a newer vehicle (anyone know when the cutoff date is for land Rover products ?) then it's different - you have a vehicle built to European type approval and not to UK standards. For these the jist of the law is that it is illegal to alter it, or to fit any non-approved accessory or part - doing so invalidates the type approval and it is no longer road legal anywhere in Europe. So there we have it, unless someone knows differently. Anyone interested enough to read the above linked document will notice that three methods are allowed : immobilising the engine in combination with locking the steering, locking the gearchange, or locking the gearbox (ie lock it as in preventing rotation). Given all the rules about preventing accidental operation of protection, I fail to see any safety or operational difference between locking the brakes on and locking the gearbox or steering. In effect, locking the gearbox will have exactly the same effect on mobility as locking the brakes on - if the Police or other authorities want it moved* then they can have it moved and neither will stop them. * At work we had someone drive into the building. The Police arranged for the car to be removed, and I noticed the recovery guy didn't bother with handbrake etc - he just put a strap through the back wheels and dragged it up the tilt-bed. Hydraulic winch 1, bent Picasso nil :D And doesn't stop anyone just towing it away. I come back to my favourite subject of the tracking system: With many systems (including mine but no spamming intended) you can set the device to consider its current position as a "home" position. Anyone moving it from home, whether by driving, towing, lifting, pushing or anyother means of propulsion, will initiate an alert being sent by text message to the vehicle owner detailing the position and the fact that it is being moved. Installing a "tilt" alarm will also trigger an alert if the vehicle is lifted or jacked up. Additionally - with a well placed camera module you can actually retrieve a photo of the bloke doing the theft! Protection from these people is cheap, but not infallible. If they want it badly enough they WILL take it, but usually they will move on to something a little less well protected. Trev R 9th Oct 2009, 22:49 My Defender with it's Disklok on, the theives gave up. Mseries3 9th Oct 2009, 22:58 Wow! Deffo going to get a Disklok :) Probably a tracker when i can afford it. I have the advantage of my series being behind 2 cars and a gate. It is also set a long way back from the road. There is no way they could hiab it (Unless anyone has seen a hiab that can reach about 60ft or over a house? ;)) Also another advantage i have, is that the bloody thing is in about 300 bits! RyderUK 9th Oct 2009, 23:03 Wow! Deffo going to get a Disklok :) Probably a tracker when i can afford it. I have the advantage of my series being behind 2 cars and a gate. It is also set a long way back from the road. There is no way they could hiab it (Unless anyone has seen a hiab that can reach about 60ft or over a house? ;)) Also another advantage i have, is that the bloody thing is in about 300 bits! Mseries I believe we know eachother from a different forum! 1. Trackers are cheap 2. If your motor is in bits it just means it'll fit in a smaller container! Mseries3 9th Oct 2009, 23:27 We do indeed. When you say Trackers are cheap... how much is cheap? Anything over a £5 is expensive for me :D With the motor in 300 peices, it would mean they would be there half the morning/night trying to move it and load it whereas a full motor they could be gone in 5 mins. Konrad96 10th Oct 2009, 09:12 that is a good idea, do you know where you get them from? get them from a scrappy, probably best, or ebay, it's just the fog light switch normally found on the right hand side of the steering column. On mine its been reversed so that the little fog light icon faces towards the dash, so you are looking at the blank back of the switch, with no icon. If that makes sense. SimonHobson 10th Oct 2009, 09:16 There is no way they could hiab it (Unless anyone has seen a hiab that can reach about 60ft or over a house? ;)) They exist, though probably not possessed by your average tea leaf - and they aren't the sort of thing you can turn up with, use, and drive away without half the neighbourhood wondering WTF's going on. 1. Trackers are cheap Going off-topic somewhat ... I'll admit yours is relatively cheap - but it's still not what a lot of people would really call cheap. I'm not knocking you, seriously I'm not, but I had a look when you had some refurbished units for sale and I'd have had two (even at full price) if it weren't for the running costs. Two things would change my mind ... 1) being able to run my own server rather than pay a third party a monthly fee for a tracking server - though I'd accept paying an up-front cost for a licence for it. 2) having wi-fi so that when the vehicles are at home, they don't use up any GPRS data. That's the other expense - there is no such thing as a cheap contract or PAYG SIM that includes data at a reasonable price. Add those two costs together and the economics don't look too rosy - unless I've missed something. I suppose everything is relative, and if I owned vehicles half the age (and worth a lot more) then I'd probably have a different view :rolleyes: RyderUK 11th Oct 2009, 01:16 They exist, though probably not possessed by your average tea leaf - and they aren't the sort of thing you can turn up with, use, and drive away without half the neighbourhood wondering WTF's going on. Going off-topic somewhat ... I'll admit yours is relatively cheap - but it's still not what a lot of people would really call cheap. I'm not knocking you, seriously I'm not, but I had a look when you had some refurbished units for sale and I'd have had two (even at full price) if it weren't for the running costs. Two things would change my mind ... 1) being able to run my own server rather than pay a third party a monthly fee for a tracking server - though I'd accept paying an up-front cost for a licence for it. 2) having wi-fi so that when the vehicles are at home, they don't use up any GPRS data. That's the other expense - there is no such thing as a cheap contract or PAYG SIM that includes data at a reasonable price. Add those two costs together and the economics don't look too rosy - unless I've missed something. I suppose everything is relative, and if I owned vehicles half the age (and worth a lot more) then I'd probably have a different view :rolleyes: What constitutes a reasonable price? I'll call your bluff. I will include Wifi... ie the ability to download day or week's journey data through a wifi network. Your gprs connection only incurs charges when you ask it to. So... if you request one position per day you get charged for 26 bytes of data daily (convert that into Mb data charges). ALL you have to do is decide what profit I deserve for carrying out the development anbd providing the service to you? Fair? Oh yes... and I'll even reprogram your units to run on your own server. Can't say fairer than that. RyderUK 11th Oct 2009, 20:29 Simon, I got your message, and I would love to comment on it but your preferences are set to decline email messages from people not on your friends list. If you would like to alter said message to include it on this thread I could reply to the thread, or else adding me to your permitted mailers list will enable me to respond privately. Cheers RyderUK SimonHobson 12th Oct 2009, 19:09 I got your message, and I would love to comment on it but your preferences are set to decline email messages from people not on your friends list. Fixed If you would like to alter said message to include it on this thread I could reply to the thread, or else adding me to your permitted mailers list will enable me to respond privately. I'm happy either way - I just thought it might be polite to continue that bit of the discussion privately. Unfortunately, the message board doesn't seem to keep a copy of what I wrote, or send me a copy :rolleyes: Demonimages 12th Oct 2009, 20:10 Im not sure about these GPS devices any more. I do a fair amount of work with the plant hire industry and Trackers & the like are becoming alot less effective now. RyderUK 12th Oct 2009, 20:15 Im not sure about these GPS devices any more. I do a fair amount of work with the plant hire industry and Trackers & the like are becoming alot less effective now. In what respect? I know from experience that the main problem with the tracking industry is that the bigger companies refuse to be flexible and adapt their software as technology advances. New ideas and possibilities are constantly being suggested by those at the sharp edge opf this technology... the end users. BUT it takes a committment to customer service to say..."OK If you want it we'll code it" Simon, Let's start privately, let me know once I am on your list and I will respond to your points. Many thanks RyderUK Demonimages 13th Oct 2009, 07:14 In what respect? The machinery & vehicles fitted with them being taken are not really recovered any more than those without now. I'm aware people stealing plant are likely to be more organised than a opportunist car thief but it does expose a big flaw in the GPS based systems. sgl322 13th Oct 2009, 08:17 In my personal opinion trackers are a waste of time on Defenders. It's too easy to find one on a Defender and remove it, especially one that needs a GPS transmitter. In addition, as far as I know in plant machinery thefts the GPS based ones often jammed when taken, rendering them useless. Cheers Steve SimonHobson 13th Oct 2009, 11:09 In my personal opinion trackers are a waste of time on Defenders. It's too easy to find one on a Defender and remove it, especially one that needs a GPS transmitter. Well that's a concern I'd have - as you say there are not many places to hide one. Secrecy is probably the best idea - don't put anything on the vehicle that gives a clue that it's there. A sophisticated thief might carry a detector and pick up the periodic signals from the mobile, but then a sophisticated thief is likely to be way with it no matter what you do. In addition, as far as I know in plant machinery thefts the GPS based ones often jammed when taken, rendering them useless. Again, sophisticated thieves - it will at least deal with the low-life scum that are more likely to be interested in something as old as mine. Also rendered useless if the vehicle goes into a container, or a building with a heavy roof. What it comes down to, is it needs two different systems - the GPS/Mobile systems will help you track your stuff yourself, the low frequency stuff (like Tracker) will help the Police track stuff after it's reported stolen AND if a police car happens to be near enough to pick up the signal. Of course you're now talking serious money, and you have to decide where to draw the line - decide how much the risk is, and how much you are prepared to pay to mitigate it. RyderUK 13th Oct 2009, 20:42 Let's not lose sight of the objective. It is pointless striving to produce a device that will stop the potential thief from taking your vehicle whether it be plant or any other machinery. The best you can ever do is slow them down to the point when it becomes more practical for them to go elsewhere. It is also very dangerous to generalise about the different trackers available. Technology has advance so much over the last five years, that where we were forced to work with flakey, unreliable hardware - we now have the most advanced GPS systems available. The last word comes down to common sense. If you copmmunicate with the tracking provider, it is likely that you will get a package that is both economical and effective. There are a great many measures that a ttracker may include apart from the AVL (Automatic Vehicle Location). Many police forces respond well to information being forwarded from a tracking system, and I know from experience that some control rooms welcome the integration of their own email addresses into the tracking software allowing the vehicle to report itself stolen and ask to be recovered. In terms of economics, I really do find it amazing that the extra security offered by a properly installed system is considered less impoprtant than a semi decent on board sound system...Especially at a fraction of the cost! educationalist 13th Oct 2009, 21:16 In terms of economics, I really do find it amazing that the extra security offered by a properly installed system is considered less impoprtant than a semi decent on board sound system...Especially at a fraction of the cost! I will second that, it has always confused me how some people will spend a small fortune on amps, speakers and head units and have a third rate security system fitted or just rely on the car manufactures immobiliser. RyderUK 13th Oct 2009, 23:14 I will second that, it has always confused me how some people will spend a small fortune on amps, speakers and head units and have a third rate security system fitted or just rely on the car manufactures immobiliser. Thanks Ed... Why not take the device and its potential and then work with the fitters and providers to come up with a better solution for your defender. How is this any different than designing your own mod for the interior for example? AND It's a shed load more fun! RyderUK 13th Oct 2009, 23:21 In my personal opinion trackers are a waste of time on Defenders. It's too easy to find one on a Defender and remove it, especially one that needs a GPS transmitter. In addition, as far as I know in plant machinery thefts the GPS based ones often jammed when taken, rendering them useless. Cheers Steve Hi Steve, Especially one that needs a GPS???????? How does this make a difference. In actual fact the GPS receiver needs to situated so that it has line of sight to the satellites. That means a small 2 inch disk has to be put somewhere on the vehicle close to a window. Seats...dashboard...headrest...roof liner...glove box if fitted... inner wing under the radio antenna... I don't want to continue for obvious reasons. SimonHobson 15th Oct 2009, 19:29 Especially one that needs a GPS???????? How does this make a difference. Because if a thief suspects that the <whatever> is fitted with a GPS based device then they can jam it remotely - both cheaply and with precious little chance of being found out. While making a 'fake' GPS transmitter is a complex and costly job, making a jammer is trivial - it takes very little signal at the right frequency to swamp the frontend of the receiver that's trying to capture a tiny signal from many thousands of miles up in the sky. The CDM (Code Division Multiplex) allows a receiver to capture such a tiny signal and reject interference - but a very large interfering signal will make it 'deaf'. Such devices are within reach of pretty well anyone with a little electronics knowledge or who knows where to ask. All the thief has to do is jam the GPS until the <whatever> is inside a metal box (eg shipping container) and that's it - the tracker will never get to know where it is or has been. The best you would get would be triangulation data from the mobile network, but that wouldn't be available historically. Jamming the mobile (GSM) network is harder, and also more likely to get you noticed. Doable if you want it enough, but beyond your average low life. That's why the likes of Tracker use their own low frequency network - it's a lot harder to jam. I believe it's claimed to work even inside a shipping container, because they are leaky enough at low frequencies to let the signal through. Downside it that you don't get all the location tools etc, or the flexibility, from something like your Pebble. If you're paranoid enough, or got something very expensive, then you might want both types fitted. As an aside, the ease with which GPS can be jammed, and the area that can be affected (rucksack sized pack could knock out GPS over several counties) is a cause of concern in aviation. The CAA (I think in conjunction with the MoD) have done some trials to study this. Now I think we really are drifting off topic :rolleyes: RyderUK 15th Oct 2009, 23:54 Drifting off topic perhaps, but I am always willing to listen to people so seem to know more than I do about a particular area of technology...especially where it affects my life directly. I would like to put forward a question. If we can put the loss of GPS positioning capability down to a deliberate act... why would we not configure the tracking/notification system to dissable the vehicle and notify the owner when this occurs. Obviously a numeric override system would need to be employed to allow a legitimate user to over ride the system should the loss of signal be due to a tunnel or some such problem. Also: I say again, we can only slow the ******s down. No one, no matter what their claims, can stop them entirely. RyderUK 16th Oct 2009, 00:01 Because if a thief suspects that the <whatever> is fitted with a GPS based device then they can jam it remotely - both cheaply and with precious little chance of being found out. Which is prbably why it is a bad idea to put a stupid "tracked by" sticker on the back of your truck! If it is a covert device there will be no tell tale arial, and the thief will be able to detect only a gprs pr gsm connection typical of any mobile phone All the thief has to do is jam the GPS until the <whatever> is inside a metal box (eg shipping container) and that's it - the tracker will never get to know where it is or has been. Here you are absolutely right and it is one t=of the banes of my life. I believe passionately in trackers but there are no solutions to the problems of metal shipping containers. (well no cheap ones anyway. We do have a solution that costs a bit but it would need to be sold to the container companies and they don't like spendding money) GPS signals do not penetrate containers. GSM/GPRS signals do not penetrate containers. Triangulation works to a level where its usefullness is negligable. So if you want the vehicle.. take the whole damn container. beqar in mind though that this does not apply to most artic trucks since most of the trailers are fibre glass roofed. Jamming the mobile (GSM) network is harder, and also more likely to get you noticed. Doable if you want it enough, but beyond your average low life. That's why the likes of Tracker use their own low frequency network - it's a lot harder to jam. I believe it's claimed to work even inside a shipping container, because they are leaky enough at low frequencies to let the signal through. Downside it that you don't get all the location tools etc, or the flexibility, from something like your Pebble. Tracker have so far declined all requests for demonstrations of successful tracking from inside a metal shipping container. This doesn't mean it doesn't work, just that it is no more effective than any other system. Of course... if the tracker boffins get their heads together they could come up with a good system to track inside the container, it is not difficult. As an aside, the ease with which GPS can be jammed, and the area that can be affected (rucksack sized pack could knock out GPS over several counties) is a cause of concern in aviation. The CAA (I think in conjunction with the MoD) have done some trials to study this. I would like to talk to you further aboout this, since I am sure that it could be beaten relatively easily. Now I think we really are drifting off topic :rolleyes: Yes but isn't it a great conversation? SimonHobson 16th Oct 2009, 08:47 As an aside, the ease with which GPS can be jammed, and the area that can be affected (rucksack sized pack could knock out GPS over several counties) is a cause of concern in aviation. The CAA (I think in conjunction with the MoD) have done some trials to study this. I would like to talk to you further aboout this, since I am sure that it could be beaten relatively easily. I don't know any more about the trials than that. I recall seeing the NOTAMs (NOtice To AirMen) warning about expected GPS errors in certain areas at certain times due to jamming trials. Aviation bodies are concerned for obvious reasons related to navigation, I'd imagine the military will be interested for other reasons as well ;) The GPS signal itself is incredibly weak as I think you can imagine, and the only way it can be received at all is due to the effective gain created by CDM. Because of this, all you need to jam it is a signal strong enough to overload the sensitive receiver input so it just can't hear the weak signal at all - similar to trying to listen to a wispered message from across the room, while some heavy rock band are playing at volume 11 in between ! I imagine you're already familiar with some of these : Code Division Multiplexing, Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-sequence_spread_spectrum), and GPS - the last of these appears to get quite heavy with the mathematics behind it (which I haven't read at this time in the morning). Hmm, really odd but what I've typed in there as the text of the first link is not being displayed - I hate systems like this that are helpful and display what they think you mean rather than what you type. Yes but isn't it a great conversation? Some of the best threads are those that drift off topic - and hardly anyone sees them as they've lost interest in the original subject line. RyderUK 16th Oct 2009, 21:52 I confess that two of those pages are over my head. The third is fine as it gives a basic breakdown of the GPS infrastructure. Jamming GPS is, it would appear, relatively easily achieved. However I wonder whether a potential te leaf would bother doing it if he had no knowledge of the vehicle being fitted with a tracking/remote control device. In which case the question becomes one of positioning of the equipment. SimonHobson 17th Oct 2009, 08:55 I confess that two of those pages are over my head. Essentially, what's going on is that the weak signal from the GPS satellites is 'scrambled' with a long binary sequence which 'looks' like a random bit stream - it's not random, they are carefully chosen. The result is a signal that looks like noise and for most receivers is probably below the local noise signal. They try and pick up the signal by descrambling with the same binary code - but they have to start with no knowledge of relative phase. So when training, they will use a particular code and will slowly slip it (it run the generator slightly faster or slower than nominal). When the code generators are in sync, the auto-correlation function has the effect of making a strong signal 'magically' appear out of the noise. Just think of X-ORing the two bit streams together - when they are not synced then you get a seemingly random output, but when the two signals are synced then you get a steady '0'. Since a relatively low frequency data signal is modulated on the transmitted code (by X-ORing them), your actual output when synced is a clear rendition of the original data signal. The apparent gain you can get is what makes the GPS signal practical - the transmitted power is (I believe) equivalent to someone many thousands of miles away with a small torch, and you are picking up the signal in daylight. The real beauty is that if you spread the spectrum enough, you can have a transmission system that doesn't even appear to someone scanning the airwaves (it's just a little bit extra on the background noise) - handy for military types who want to communicate in secret. Jamming GPS is, it would appear, relatively easily achieved. However I wonder whether a potential te leaf would bother doing it if he had no knowledge of the vehicle being fitted with a tracking/remote control device. In which case the question becomes one of positioning of the equipment. Exactly what was suggested earlier in the thread - don't put a big sticker on the vehicle saying "GPS Tracked". I thought of this yesterday when I was behind a trademans van with a big yellow sticker on the back saying ... "GPS Tracked" :rolleyes: Make the installation covert enough and the best they'll know (if they have scanning equipment) is that there's a mobile phone in there. 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Terms and conditions   Privacy Policy || Land Rover Tangi From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation , search A PSNI Land Rover Tangi in Belfast The Land Rover Tangi is the last in the line of a range of armoured vehicles , based on the Land Rover chassis used in policing during the Northern Ireland 'Troubles' . They were used by the Royal Ulster Constabulary and then the Police Service of Northern Ireland when the RUC changed its name to the PSNI in 2001. The vehicle was designed and built in house by the Royal Ulster Constabulary's own engineers. [ 1 ] . Contents 1 History of armoured Land Rovers in Northern Ireland 2 The Tangi 3 Operational use 4 Status 5 The Hotspur Hussar 6 References 7 External links [ edit ] History of armoured Land Rovers in Northern Ireland Due to the unique threat of terrorism faced by police officers in Northern Ireland during the Troubles , the RUC had long used armoured vehicles to provide protection to its officers. The first to be based on the Land Rover appeared in 1957, on a Series 1 109" wheelbase pick-up body (registration WZ 599, fleet number 233) [ 1 ] . This incorporated only a basic level of protection, designed to repel bricks and bottles in a public order situation . A expanded metal cage was fitted over the rear cargo bed and lined with hardboard to prevent sharp objects being thrust through the cage. Similar expanded metal grilles protected the windows and headlights on the vehicle to prevent them being broken by thrown projectiles. It was not long however, before the police came under attack with firearms, against which the cages and hardboard of the early Land Rovers provided no protection. Plates of ballistic steel were added to each side of the rear cargo bed and an armoured steel door fitted to the rear. While providing a greater degree of protection from low velocity weapons, this was far from an ideal solution. There were many areas of the vehicle which were still wholly unprotected and it was realised a fresh design was required to protect the lives of police officers. Land Rover Tangi passing Belfast City Hall , sporting the old livery of the RUC The result was the Hotspur Land Rover, named after the brand of armour plate made in Wales used in its construction. The chassis of a civilian Land Rover 109 station wagon was used. Underneath the standard aluminium roof a second roof fabricated from armoured steel was installed, providing overhead protection from gunfire, petrol bombs and IEDs. Large plates of ballistic steel were bolted to the sides of the vehicle, which wrapped around the rear pillar and met with an armoured double door. Both these doors and the side plates were fitted with sliding pistol ports to allow the officers inside to return fire should they be ambushed. The rear doors, sides and roof constituted an armoured box providing all round protection to the crew in the rear of the vehicle. For the driver and front seat passenger's protection, the windscreen and side windows were replaced with thick sheets of bulletproof glass and the doors armour plated. Finally, an expanded metal grille could be pulled up over the windscreen to prevent the windscreen being broken by thrown objects during civil disorder and the side windows covered with a sheet of transparent polycarbonate for the same purpose. The Hotspur was immediately put into action and worked admirably. A myriad of modifications were carried out over the years, including lining the vehicles' lower panels with sheets of polycarbonate to prevent the body panels from being dented during civil disorder. Metal grilles and rubber skirts were fitted around the lower perimeter of the vehicle to prevent projectiles being thrown under the body at officers who were sheltering behind, and also to prevent beer kegs being rolled under the vehicle in an attempt to immobilise it. By the end of 1983, 151 Hotspurs [ 1 ] had also been fitted with a fire extinguishing system operated by the front seat passenger. In the event of the vehicle being hit by a petrol bomb, as was not uncommon during civil disorder, a dashboard button was pressed. This caused the heater blower and engine fan to switch off, and a fire extinguisher was automatically discharged through a series of pipes into the engine bay and over the windscreen and bonnet. The Hotspur was complemented by a more advanced armoured Land Rover called the Simba. This, rather than being a civilian Land Rover with armour bolted on, was a chassis which was fitted with a purpose built armoured steel body providing 360 degree protection against high velocity rifle fire, bricks, bottles, petrol bombs and small improvised explosive devices . However, due to the Simba's advanced and purpose built nature it was very slow to produce and the Hotspur Land Rovers were beginning to wear out, so a solution was needed to quickly get more armoured police vehicles on the streets. The answer was the Land Rover Tangi. [ edit ] The Tangi Armour kits from tired Hotspurs were fitted onto brand new Land Rover Defender 110 civilian chassis. When donor kits ran out, the RUC workshops began to fabricate brand new ones. The vehicles' headlights were initially protected from damage by transparent polycarbonate shields but these were quickly found to be less durable than the original metal grilles of the Hotspur and were replaced. At the front and rear of the roof each of the Tangis were fitted with a remotely controlled spotlight and a rotating blue warning light, all protected by expanded metal grilles. The Hotspur's side skirts were retained, as was its fire protection system. In addition, burning petrol was prevented from entering the engine bay by a fabric strip around the bonnet edge and at the hinge between the bonnet and the front bulkhead. Further, the engine radiator was protected from damage with a substantial louvred grill fabricated from 3 mm steel sheet. The first Tangi (registration HXI 3593, fleet number 8203) went into action on the 16 th January 1986. [ 1 ] Crews were very welcoming of the Tangi and much preferred it to the Hotspur, mainly thanks to its power steering and air conditioning which the Hotspur lacked, and that it was impervious to most of the weapons encountered during civil disorder. The use of coffee jars filled with explosives, which were dropped onto the roof of Tangis driving under overpasses, led to the adoption of the Dawson roof. This was effectively a second steel roof mounted over the first and works similar to spaced armour, detonating the IED before it struck the main armoured roof. Vehicles fitted with the Dawson roof were easily identified due to its large, angular appearance. Similar IEDs were fitted with small drogues on the rear, so they could be thrown horizontally to strike the side of a Tangi thus circumventing the additional roof armour. The RUC responded to this with a similar measure to the Dawson roof, fitting a plate of ballistic steel several inches from the hull to detonate the bomb before it struck the main armoured body. In this final form, with the Dawson roof and hardened side armour, the Tangi is seen on the streets of Northern Ireland today. [ edit ] Operational use Tangis are known to the local population as 'meat wagons' [ 2 ] (as the police are often referred to as 'pigs') or a 'Newry Ice-cream van'. The vehicles are synonymous with Northern Ireland's Troubles . At the height of the Troubles the vehicles were essential for patrolling across Northern Ireland, carrying two police officers in the front and a maximum of five officers wearing riot helmets and carrying shields in the rear. At this time they were painted in a dark grey livery. A number of people were killed after being hit by the vehicles during the Troubles, usually in riot situations. [ 3 ] Since the Good Friday Agreement and the resulting peace, the vehicles are largely used for crowd control, particularly during contested Orange Order parades. The vehicles are now painted in standard white, yellow and blue Battenburg markings , as seen on the majority of police vehicles throughout the United Kingdom, rather than the original battleship grey. The original rotating blue beacons have been replaced with full width halogen light bars and small blue strobes fitted to the front grill. [ edit ] Status More than half of the former RUC (now PSNI) fleet of 450 armoured Land Rovers were decommissioned under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. A number, mainly Tangis, came back to the mainland UK to be refurbished and distributed among UK forces. North Wales Police are known to operate Tangis, and after the Bradford riots West Yorkshire Police bought six. [ 4 ] [ 5 ] The vehicle has become popular with collectors. Die-cast models and artwork of the vehicles are available. [ edit ] The Hotspur Hussar The Hotspur Hussar is a military Armoured Personnel Carrier designed in 1984 and based upon the Land Rover Hotspur and Tangi. It features a third driven axle to provide a 6x6 configuration and is capable of carrying a crew of two plus ten fully-equipped soldiers over rugged terrain. Up to six gun ports may be provided, three on each side of the vehicle through which the occupants can fire at an enemy. The Hotspur Hussar was exported to Sri Lanka. [ edit ] References ^ a b c d Dunne, D. 2007. Armoured and Heavy Vehicles of the RUC 1922-2001 , Ian Allan Publishing. ^ http://web2.uwindsor.ca/courses/ps/dartnell/photo5.html ^ CAIN ^ landrover.net ^ UK Emergency Vehicles > Police > Police 14 [ edit ] External links Wikicars entry